With all my discussion of my intimacy enjoyment I am often attacked on trips as being the old fool. This discussion proved quite interesting about men that prefer as Schwinger says in one post, "men who virtually rape women on the dance floor." It seems that is what real men are, not us more like being girlfriend men that are so weak and destroying the women for liking us instead of real men like schwinger. He views what I share as "That's a huge step backward for mankind." and " please, don't come here to Toronto and spread your 'losers gospel' in our country."

Old Fools posted by schwinger
It's very, very sad to read posts and see the plight of poor souls like Dave in Phoenix. He is over 50 years old and my guess is that he has probably been rejected so often by women in the real world that he travels all the way from Phoenix just to get a feeling of what he believes is 'intimacy'. He uses words like: 'geniune', 'caring', 'sharing 'and 'positive' to describe strip-clubs and the pay-for-sex experience. He even knows that the experiences are not real, yet, he is willing to fool himself into believing otherwise. And this is precisely the strategy that all strippers use to exploit men for money, gifts and whatever else they think they can get. The best ones try to figure out what exactly it is that the particular man (victim) wants from them. That is his weakness. It could be: (1) high mileage that night, (2) sex from them, (3) company, (4) to be their boyfriend, (5) real connection & intimacy with them. Dave's weakness is #5, probably because he has not been able to find an attractive girlfriend in real life who is mutually attracted to him. The next step is that they make you believe that you actually have a 'chance'. They give you a small taste of what you want. They string you along. They make you believe that, yes, it could actually be possible. This hot babe might actually be digging me, for real. There is a saying about "A fool and his money......"
--------------------------------------------------------
A reply:
schwinger Its very very sad to read posts and see the plight of poor souls such as yourself! Your post reveals more about yourself than about Dave. Dave's enjoying himself. I wish you would. Then perhaps you would stop talking about others that you know nothing about. Please don't drag others down to your own level of dissatisfaction.
--------------------------------------------------------
Dave responds:
shwinger - I feel sorry for you and how you view the world.

No dancer is fooling me or leading me on. I have learned years ago the joy of sincere soul-to-soul connections with another person even if for the moment and even if paid. I expect nothing long-term just for the moment when our lives cross. In expressing a true caring for the inner person via good touch I often get very wonderful responses.

Sorry if it makes you so insecure that I enjoy that and often get the great response.

In Phoenix before the 1998 no touch law, I literally have had hostesses at strip clubs have to make a waiting list for dancers who wanted to be with me. I am not bragging but to show how even your hardened jaded dancers respond to a guy with a caring attitude and good touch. It absolutely was not for my money since in Phoenix clubs all but about $6 of the dance fee ($20-25 for 3 song routine) went to the house and the dancers make their real money via getting tips. I never, ever tipped since in a way it was a social experiment and I wanted to be sure their desire to be with me was real. That proved the interest was sincere. Dancers wanted to share a moment with me just like I enjoy sharing a moment (of songs) with them. Again the power of caring touch I did that I share this about, encouraging more men to learn if they wish to.

At another club there was a hostess/dancer that always avoided me. She just couldn't understand why I was so popular when so cheap I never tipped. One night she had to have a dance with me. Then for years afterward she was my biggest fan. Usually she was a hostess and sometimes literally tossed new dancers into my lap saying they had to experience me.

I've also had lots of dancers cry in my arms, saying they have never felt such good caring touch before, and zillions asking me jokingly if I could teach their boyfriends/husbands to be better at good touch.

Absolutely true examples and I have many others on the power of "for the moment" caring touch.

But so many guys just don't get it, think its silly and just for money. With your attitude that is all it will ever be - just a rent a body for a sexy grope for 3 minutes.

I certainly enjoy life to its fullest being able to interact for the moment with different women and share sensual touch and sexuality in the right setting.

Yes some dancers are just like you describe, jaded and just in it for the money. But many dancers are also actually wonderfully women with a desire to interact for the moment and share a wonderful sensitive, caring, intimate moment when they find that type of open caring person to share with.

No, not all dancers, not even the majority, but enough that I have such wonderful experiences. I wish you could experience it someday, but it comes more from the heart and soul than from the head or wallet.
--------------------------------------------------------
Another wise response to schwinger
shwinger...

I don't disagree with your comments regarding Dave's, wonderfully, warped perception of reality and there's much truth in your post. I do, though, have a couple of comments.

Yes, there are old fools just as there are young fools. With age comes experience and that, coupled with whatever degree of native intelligence one possesses, constitutes the degree of maturity and wisdom one will attain.

You say "pay-for-sex experience" like it's a bad thing. We all pay for sex. One guy has a sig that reads something like: "the only difference between sex for money and free sex is the sex for money costs less". Rarely, have truer words been spoken. I've got friends, who are girls, but I refrain from having sex with them as I'm not prepared to make a major emotional commitment and don't want to mislead them. I have sympathy for guys who are so naive or deluded they think a girl, half their age, that they've just met either thinks they're God's gift to women or gives a rat's ass about them. As far as wanting sex from them is concerned; it'd be queer (pun intentional) is you didn't.

A real connection and intimacy require time to develop, aren't likely in these circumstances and can't be bought or faked (notice the "real"). Not all girls, in the business, are heartless gold diggers and some feel lonely and isolated. Occasionally, a bond does develop that has little to do with money.
--------------------------------------------------------
shwinger replies
To Dave and others. Firstly, no offense to older guys, my message was meant for all ages. Secondly, unfortunately I didn't get to the real point I wanted to make. In most European and Asian countries, average guys don't usually pay for sex or go to strip clubs. Why? Because they don't have to. It's the tourists and visiting businessmen who go to the brothels. The native guys expect more from the average women on the street. They expect their women to act like real women, and they act like real men. Which means that they don't have to put them on a pedestal in order to have sex with them. Therefore, there is no need to go to strip clubs to see naked women, when you can find them so easily everyday. Trust me, I've been there and done them. Then you have guys like Dave, who not only pay for sex, but will pay to caress them, and he thinks of himself of some sort of pioneer? Gimme a break. Any real guy knows that it's the girlfriend who craves the caressing and that's why she will fuck you, just to get those precious intimate moments after you've blown your load. In Dave's bizarre world, men pay women for the opportunity to give them breast massages and hold them lovingly. That's a huge step backward for mankind. The point is, guys should expect more from all women: sexworkers, co-workers, girlfriends & wives, and we'll all be better off. Real men of the world, unite. This new age male feminity trend has gone too far.
--------------------------------------------------------
Another replies, "Well, a wise man once said "you don't pay a call girl for sex, you pay them to leave afterwards."
--------------------------------------------------------
shwinger replies
To Misterbig, re: your quote "... you don't pay a call girl for sex, you pay them to leave afterwards". That's the whole point. If we EXPECT MORE from all women, then not only do we not pay for sex, we also can tell them to get lost afterwards, as a normal way of life. I know this is a difficult concept to understand, as we have been brainwashed in North America the last 20-30 years, but it's absolutely the way it is in many countries (think: Russia, China, Thailand). I know guys who have gone to Russia, for example, and are shocked at how the local guys pick up women at some nightclubs - by practically raping them on the dancefloor. This is happening with regular (i.e. gorgeous) girls, and it's totally expected. In fact, guys who try to pickup girls using North American pickup techniques (being nice, talking, grovelling, etc...) simply cannot score. If we all start acting like Dave, then not only are we paying, we are getting nothing for it, only the 'chance' that we might get a sincere connection once in a blue moon. Talk about expecting less. We have to start training our women properly and adopt world standards.

To Dave in Phoenix: ok, I agree that maybe you are connecting with women once in a while - but that's more of a woman-to-woman type of non-sexual intimacy, not the type of man-to-woman intimacy that guys want. It is possible that your techniques could be popular with women, but from what you say, it sounds like you are received by women in the same way that the non-threatening gay man is welcomed like 'one of the girls'. You are out-womening even the women. As guys, you are right - we don't get it. What guy wants that kind of intimacy, anyway? If that's the best you can do, then good for you, that's your life. But please, don't come here to Toronto and spread your 'losers gospel' in our country.
--------------------------------------------------------
Another reply
Shwinger,
If you really think those women in Russia (or Thailand, or any other gender repressive cultures) 'enjoy' that behaviour, you are seriously flawed dude. They live in an environment without any options
--------------------------------------------------------
Dave replies
shwinger

I understand exactly where you are coming from, and while I feel exactly the opposite of you in most ways, I respect your speaking out based on what you think is best and how you want to relate to women.

To me its the old fashion macho image, which is exactly what turns off so many women today. In fact that is why Russian, Asian and many Latin women so much prefer Western men because they are treated so badly by "macho men".

But some of us believe a man should be manly by being loving and treating women as equals not having a power struggle with them. You would do well in biblical times when men owned all the sexual rights to their wives and concubines.

But today, in the Western culture, many man, as much as you may hate it, seek a relationship partner of equals.

Many of us are not into almost raping a women on the dance floor as in your Russian example.

Some of us don't think we are groveling when we respect women as real people with feelings and enjoy tenderly, sensually caressing their bodies the way THEY like be caressed with loving hands from a warm heart. And that is simply more fulfilling for me than your way of treating women.

Your gay friend comparison isn't true since gay men don't like to caress breasts and don't get sexually aroused. And I also enjoy having sex with an escort, yet respect the legal limits of strip clubs and MPs.

Just because our loving caring respecting side is expressed in our interaction with women, hardly makes us losers, except in your view.

I respect your macho male view, but think you should respect our view and not try and impose your beliefs as the only one for men and everyone else should get out of Dodge (or Toronto) just to please you.

I think your type of attitude is becoming less and less as you yourself indicate with in your view the fall of man over the last 20 years. But many men are finding greater personal fulfillment in the new man more loving view and I see this trend against your view continuing. Maybe you should move to a culture your more approving of such as Russia, Thailand, China, where there are still women you can control and rape (mentally as well as perhaps physically).

I am just as proud of being a loving, caring, non-macho man as you are of being so macho.

My point is to present both sides and let each man decide what is more fulfilling for him. Many men not only feel better being the non-mach man, but are amazed at how much easier it is to attract Western women.

My problem is simply most Western women are still very monogamy brainwashed (in my view) and are looking for commitment for security. That is why I prefer sexworkers who have overcome that barrier and the fact I am usually not physically attracted to women anywhere near my age. And I enjoy being more like a girlfriend to them as you put it, because I get wonderful sensual response which I enjoy as much as sex and certainly more than almost raping her (your dance floor example).
--------------------------------------------------------
Another reply
shwinger my man your education is sorely lacking. I've used the same techniques as Dave for years and I rarely go home alone. Can you say that? I propose a wager. Name your stakes ,Name the bar, you go in with your blow me bitch attitude, I'll give a foot massage to a girl who has been wearing 4 inch stilletto heels for six hours. I bet I get some and you get the palm sisters. Don't lose your style though, guy's like you have been making me look good for years.
--------------------------------------------------------
Dave replies
We should get together with a dancer. I'll do her neck, back and hands, while your doing her feet. She would be in heaven!
--------------------------------------------------------
shwinger replies
If you are not paying for any of that action, then I somewhat respect that, if it is only a part of your rap and that you truly realize that it is a temporary desperation technique. Of course we all know that the sensitive guy approach works with some girls - every guy has had to grovel at some point with some girls. But that's a last resort desperation technique only necessary because other guys have set the expection with the girls that this is how she is supposed to be treated. At least I REALIZE that. You guys have been brainwashed to believe that this should be the norm. The point is, if we all collectively raise our standards, then nobody would have to use these desperation techniques. And then there are guys like Dave openly promoting desperation behaviour. P.S. Re: your challenge. I'll meet you at the Hungry Duck in Moscow. Stakes: your balls.

To Dave: Your posts speak for themselves. In your own words, you want to be somebody's 'girlfriend'? There are a lot of guys at strip clubs looking for girlfriends. Nuff said.
--------------------------------------------------------
shwinder also says to many other replies I didn't include:
To you guys who think that the barbarian approach doesn't work, I'll let you know a little bit about my situation. I've been dating one of the dancers at one of the popular clubs for about 6 months, and she's cooking and cleaning for me and buying ME things with your money! The funny thing is that she knows I'm also dating other girls, yet she somehow respects me even more for that?! But alas, I've had my fun with her and it's time for catch-and-release as RRnS has pointed out. To me that's the ultimate turning of the tables... getting them to spend their time and their money on YOU. I'm not saying that this works for every situation, especially not here in North America, but this should be the goal for all of mankind.

P.S.S. Word of warning though... they do come with baggage, so I wouldn't recommend dating a dancer to everybody, plus make sure that you don't become too attached to them. Then, you're really in trouble.

Source: http://www.terb.ca/board2

Back to Toronto Report Main Menu

Sexwork.com More Extensive Worldwide Website